Comments on run with it: The Great Emergence, Continued

well RZ, i intended anything but elitism. if anyth...

2009-06-05T08:10:12.259-07:00

well RZ, i intended anything but elitism. if anything, i suppose i mostly feel like the village idiot.

as for your other points, i can't argue, nor would i choose to. as i attempted to make plain, i'm no scholar. I'm just trying to find my way. If that offends you, i'm sorry. I don't know how to do anything else; and it seems to me that I've found a lot of good company in my efforts. I never again want to find myself so certain of my ideas that I'm willing to cut down others to make my point.

anonymous, i think you're right. I know plenty of people doing just that, and it seems to me in no way contrary to what Tickle is presenting in her book.

I assume you've both read The Great Emergence...?

I agree with RZ....the Church was realized/formed ...

2009-06-05T07:05:08.165-07:00

I agree with RZ....the Church was realized/formed almost 2000 years ago. If anyone wants to refind mysticism, sacraments, and the original intention of the Church, they could start there. Just an idea.

Usually when surrounded by people who can't fathom...

2009-05-31T22:03:34.988-07:00

Usually when surrounded by people who can't fathom what is going on in my mind, nor do they seem to want to.Pardon me, but that kinda smacks of elitism, doesn't it?

I regret this on several levels, yet I'm still a bit confounded about how to manage it. Has it occured to you that it was never intended for you to "manage" anything?

When you come across a line like "Christianity is a story still being written", does it occur to you that perhaps the truth might be "Christianity is a story written, concluded, and the book closed before the foundation (creation) of the world?"It's not a "conversation." It's not "a story still being written"

Jesus Christ came with a specific goal in mind. He came with a final outcome to be achieved. He called the game before the first pitch was thrown....

All that the Father has given to me WILL come to me and NOT A SINGLE ONE will be lost."...

The entire premise of PT's book (ie, it's foundation) is flawed. Horribly, and tragically flawed. The church does not have any such "500 year interval" resurgance that she suggests.

Take a look at Church history. What about John's revelation. The council of Trent? Augustine, Jerome, Origen? The ottoman empire and the crusades. The Great Awakening/French Renaissance? The Great Schism? What about the Great Western Schism? The SECOND great awakening? Azuza street and the insurgence of charismatica?

All these things and more put the church (both roman and protestant) into upheaval and redefined or refocused man's attention.

And none of them happened on this 500-year interval. Why? Because the church has constantly been in upheaval and turmoil from the time it was established, and both Paul and Jesus Christ Himself said it would happen in exactly the way that it has happened.

"500-yearism" is just another form of Nostradamus prophesying. "Well, if you squint really hard and hold your head just right, you can kinda-sorta see this pattern."...

Well... yeah. If you are willing to take history, close your eyes and count by fives... you can pull any rabbit you want outta that hat!

Erin makes a good point about one reason to open y...

2009-05-28T18:53:26.919-07:00

Erin makes a good point about one reason to open your trap. You never know when the other person will be looking for the same as you.

You can use small questions to see if the eyes glaze over or the fires of hell are ignited in their eyes. If so, cease and desist immediately. If not, try another question or statement.

Avoid arguments. They go nowhere.

Plus, it takes some courage to just come out of the closet, so to speak, and let people react as they will. You may, or may not, be ready for that.....

I also like Erin's comment about following the Spirit as your guide.

That IS the catch, of course. It's like being a sp...

2009-05-28T07:53:37.588-07:00

That IS the catch, of course. It's like being a spy...is there anyone you can reveal your true identity to?

gee erin- thanks for throwing some mud in that wat...

2009-05-28T05:34:32.692-07:00

gee erin- thanks for throwing some mud in that water ;-) I'd love a little built in balance meter-- like in spy glasses- that would constantly show only me how my balance is. It would look like a fuel gauge -- or like the ready light you can only see with the viewfinder on a camera :-)

And I agree with Traveller that it is likely you w...

2009-05-27T21:38:46.432-07:00

And I agree with Traveller that it is likely you will always be met with blank stares, especially if you are in a rather small community...and no one is going to be convinced in conversation.

But should you ever "open your trap" and then someone says something to you in agreement (probably when no one else is around), you will have found someone who you can share the journey with. And you just might be that person's lifeline, especially if they think they are alone.

So it is a balance...the best guide is the spirit...though listening is often a challenge. :)

traveller- I agree that 99% of the time, at least,...

2009-05-27T19:33:24.363-07:00

traveller- I agree that 99% of the time, at least, I should keep the trap closed. I'll be hanged if I can figure why it keeps opening up again even when i know this! I'm sure duct tape on the mouth would raise at least as many questions as my (apparent) non sequiturs.

Thanks for the clarification. A few thoughts in r...

2009-05-27T19:10:23.924-07:00

Thanks for the clarification. A few thoughts in response. I agree with what Erin has said. What you express that you are experiencing is what I have seen in every person I know who has gone through this process, including me. There will come a point where you will have to make a choice. As Erin wisely states only you can judge the timing. I would add that there is always a time to leave, even if you were not going through this process. Being wise, and courageous, enough to make change is sometimes difficult.

As to "keeping your trap shut", I understand that as well. My only thoughts are that only a small percentage of folks at any one time/location are going through what you are experiencing. So, by definition you are going to sound like the crazy person when you start to talk about your thinking. From my experience you will not convince anyone by having a discussion. This is something the Holy Spirit starts in a life and we only join them that person in the journey. So, to the extent you can remain quiet except when you sense the other person is starting/on the journey it is probably better. But who knows....maybe you are the one to nudge them to start....

i guess, to simplify it enough for my vocabulary, ...

2009-05-27T09:13:17.785-07:00

i guess, to simplify it enough for my vocabulary, it's knowing what, if anything to say, and how to keep my trap shut when saying nothing is the best way to go. the "how to keep my trap shut" is my greatest challenge!!

Sorry to shake your paradigm tree. :) I don't env...

2009-05-26T21:44:22.417-07:00

Sorry to shake your paradigm tree. :)

I don't envy you. That is an exceedingly difficult position to be in and I don't have a lot of wisdom for you on how to *manage* it. I will say that in my experience I found that after a year or so of working to remain in the paradigm, it was making me miserable and something had to give. Unfortunately, I didn't listen when it was time to leave, and, well, the rest wasn't pretty. I ended up burning bridges that I didn't intend to.

You know I'm never going to tell you that it's time to move on...no one can determine that for you. Just sharing my thoughts on the subject.

Traveller- I should have seen that coming from you...

2009-05-26T19:08:45.852-07:00

Traveller- I should have seen that coming from you! and you too Erin!

Here are my best answers. Note I didn't say "my good answers."

#1 I like to manage everything. It's my way. (I know, I know.)

#2 My church position is becoming increasingly difficult to balance with my disparity. (See, I cleverly used "balance" instead of "manage" here in order to throw you off.)

#3 A bunch of garbled up thoughts about being called out, serving wherever you land, and meeting people where they are, etc...

I absolutely love these quotes, thanks for sharing...

2009-05-26T18:59:05.152-07:00

I absolutely love these quotes, thanks for sharing them. And certainly not to make light of your frustration...but I don't know that it CAN be managed. Once the frustration has set in, there's no going back. Eventually you have to go with it. It's more "when" than "if".

May I ask why you would wish to manage it?

2009-05-26T17:51:27.547-07:00

May I ask why you would wish to manage it?